TRANSCRIPT
Making the World Brighter, Sassier and More Colorful: Alice Wong on Disability Justice
SEASON 1 · EPISODE 3
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Welcome to the #BeTheBossNow Podcast and I am your host Gregory Allan Datu Cendana, President and Co-Founder of Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting, Chief Creative Officer of Greg Dances and #1 International Best Selling Author of Be the Boss Now Book: 15 Key Steps to Start, Run, and Grow Your Own Business.
So often, people don’t take risks because they are afraid of failure or rejection.
As an openly gay, Filipino American who was raised in a working class, immigrant, and Catholic household, these experiences shaped my values and the entrepreneur and leader I have become and led me to found and run different companies and nonprofits. I’ve also built a business that grew during the pandemic while creating opportunities and increasing access for people from diverse backgrounds.
The #BeTheBossNow podcast will lift up the stories of different folks who identify as Black, Indigenous, Latinx, Asian, Middle Eastern, woman, queer, people with disabilities, and those living at the intersections of multiple of these identities.
I believe there is a boss in ALL of us - especially for those of us who have historically lacked representation in leadership. Furthermore, when we embrace fear and failure as inspiration to guide us on our journeys, it will be for the better and in service to making our biggest, boldest and most audacious dreams a reality.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Alice Wong (She/Her) is a disabled activist writer, media maker, and consultant. She is the Founder and Director of the Disability Visibility project, an online community dedicated to creating, sharing and amplifying disability media and culture, created in 2014. Alice is the editor of Disability Visibility: First-Person Stories From The 21st Century, an anthology of essays by disabled people, and Disability Visibility: 17 First-Person Stories for Today, an adapted version for young adults. Her debut memoir, Year of the Tiger: An Activist's Life, will be available on September 6th, 2022 from Vintage Books. You can find her on Twitter @sfdirewolf; @sfdirewolf.
Well, thank you again, um, Alice for joining us, um, on the Be the Boss Now podcast. I'm really looking forward to this conversation and being and and just always appreciate being in community with you.
Alice Wong: Aww, thank you Greg, thanks so much for having me. I just, like a boss, I'm ready to get started.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, so one, one thing about Be the Boss Now, um, is that we, we hope that it gives people the agency to decide what a boss means for them. To live their wildest dreams and make change in their communities. Um, can you share with folks what it means to you to be a boss?
Alice Wong: I think I'll first start with, what I don't think it means. I don't think it means, uh, you know, controlling people, you know, employing people necessarily. You know, some people think about "boss" as these exploitative you know, kind of, capitalists, you know, money bags, in some ways, yeah, there are those people. But there's always also the "girl boss", sort of, you know, concept that also turns me off. You know, like, this whole white feminist idea of what it means to be a boss, which I think is really annoying. I think for me, being a boss is just about freedom. Freedom, I think is the first thing I think about when it comes to being my own boss. And that is something that I've always, you know, wanted and always sort of operated as? Outside of my employments with other, you know, earlier years.
Um, but really it's about just a freedom to do what you want, and how you want to do it. And also just the freedom to choose. You know, the freedom to just be yourself. I think that's what it means to be the ultimate boss - to really define your narrative, and to really have agency.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Hey, that really resonates with me, this, that, that piece around agency, defining your narrative. Um, and one of the things that I was reflecting on from myself, especially as someone who, um, was a union organizer, involved in the labor movement, you know, I think "boss" has a lot of different connotations.
And to your point, for me, I learned about bosses being these CEOs who really make, you know, way more money than they probably should. And, um, part of this process for me was about redefining "boss" and redefining "boss," um, in very similar ways that you're kind of laying out. Um, and I see it as an opportunity or as a way to also think about economic justice, right.
And social justice. Because when we are able to make those decisions for ourselves, but also be able to provide for ourselves and for our loved ones, um, that gets us closer to freedom and to being able to have that sense of self and agency and community. And, uh, so I definitely resonate with that.
Alice Wong: Well, I also want to bring up. Um, you know, when you first invited me, I think it was, you know, I was like, "wow, this is really cool." But I was like - I remember emailing you back saying, "You know Greg, by the way, I'm not really a boss boss." Sometimes we have these very narrow conceptions and I said - you know, I own my own company, but I do not, really have employees. And I wasn't sure whether this podcast was all about being an employer. You know, I was just like, "By the way, I might not be the right fit." But I do think of these sort of images, right? The evil overlord...
But I think it's a lot more than that. And hopefully it is time for liberation, and freedom, and the sense that everybody should, in an ideal society, have the means to be their own boss. And people don't.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmn-hmmn.
Alice Wong: So it is a big issue of power, but it's also an issue of justice.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmn, absolutely. I appreciate you, always so thoughtful.
And you know, that was one of the reasons why I wanted to invite you to be a guest on the podcast. Um, because I just appreciate, um, the way you are so intentional on how you, um, hold - like hold yourself in, and are mindful about being in spaces. And, um, I think one, one thing I talk about in the book is that you know, there, the goals are different. You know, not everyone is necessarily trying to be an employer. Um, you know, there was actually someone who came to me and was like, you know, "what if I just, you know, I don't, I don't have an intention to hire other people or even subcontractors? I just want to have enough, um, enough to be able to support myself and my family."
And I said, that's totally okay. You know? Um, And so I want to be able to make sure that folks understand and know that like the goals that we have even in being our own boss looked different and whatever the goals may be, um, if they are, if they are your goals and you're clear on um, what that, what that will mean for you and your loved ones and the ones you care about.
And then that for me is enough. Um.
Alice Wong: Yeah, I think we need to take away, like the centering of corporations and executives...
A parent could be a boss. You know, somebody who just is subsisting, and just, uh, living day to day, they are a boss, right? I think almost in many ways, both you and I, as activists, you know, I think we come up against some of these really outdated ideas of who gets to be an activist.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmn-Hmmn.
Alice Wong: These are the same kind of interrogations that we need to have about "bosses," right? To really get to experiment and also to give it more nuance.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Yeah, I totally agree. You know, many - so often people don't take risks because they're afraid of failure or rejection. Um, however, you know, in my journey, and as I'm learning more about you, um, uh, I've, I've found that experiencing setbacks and failures have actually taught me my greatest lessons.
And in some cases, it even strengthened my own sense of self. Can you tell us about a time when a failure or rejection was your friend?
Alice Wong: Yeah, I see that like, uh, failure really was, you know, these major turning points for you. Figure out oh maybe, like, I can let go of something. And I'm not, like, a total loser, you know? And it's OK to have a dream, but also have those dreams change.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmn-hmmn.
Alice Wong: You know, I think that's really hard too, because sometimes we build up these rules that are mired in these ideas of like, success. And I think for listeners, you know, I'm going to turn 48 this year and I feel like, you know, I'm really just proud of it now, and I love it. But I do think that when I was younger, I really was hung up on so many of these extraneous ideas of what success should look like. So for me, I think one of the biggest failures that was truly just like difficult for me to reconcile with was in grad school. Because, uh, you know, I came out to San Francisco from Indianapolis... you know, excited about a new life, and just, so... you know, just like wide-eyed. I was just so excited to be in the Bay Area.
And my goal at that time and it's been that way for, ever since I was a student, was really to be an academic. You know, I thought I was going to be a PhD. You know, my dream life was going to be about being a professor and writing and teaching. You know, I looked up to a lot of my professors. And in the middle of grad school, I just sort of hit a brick wall. Like, I just was... I was tired and burnt out. But I also saw that, I wasn't yet close-up to academia... You see how faculty live, and it's hard. It's... there's no glamour involved.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmn-hmmn.
Alice Wong: Uh, people who graduated with their PhDs, the job market is brutal. And I realized, like, "Oh my goodness, I'm already in my -- for example -- third year." It was such a challenge just to keep up. I felt so overwhelmed. I'm also the child of immigrants who have never been to grad school. You know, the first year of the PhD program, I just... a complete fish out of water. I probably didn't have, like, a lot of support in my department. I was also embarrassed, too, because you know, I was probably-- not probably, not really-- but you know, I was a disabled student. Yeah. I felt, I just had to prove myself. I just you know, take it all on, and I just like, you know, be as good as everyone else. And I think that also, you know, contributed to my burnout. So the failure was, uh, you know, I didn't go forward with my program.
I decided, you know what? I'm just gonna... It's not sustainable. I'm really loving the Bay Area. I love being an activist, being involved in different communities. I still love research. And then one day, one of my friends in grad school, mentioned you know, "You could still do research. You could do it as a staff person. So you could be a staff research associate. You don't have do a Ph.D. You just won't be the you know, lead author, or just, you won't get the kind of, kudos."
And I realized, oh my gosh. Like, there are other ways, right? So, it was a real blow to my ego.
Okay, this is like failure, learning lessons, and also dealing with your own ego. You know, I quit my Ph.D program, you know, this is very anti-model minority. I got a - what they call a "terminal master's degree." So they didn't really have a master's program. But I did enough to get a master's. So yeah, I have a master's [degree]. And sometimes it makes me a little embarrassed, but then sometimes I try to remind myself, that I did earn it, I did the work. I didn't do all of the work, but you know what, I think it was... I wouldn't be here today if that didn't happen to me. Because I ended up working at UCSF, the University, you know, I went to grad school, I worked there for 10 plus years as a researcher. And then that actually led me to my pathway as a consultant, because I started doing kind of other work on the side. It was my side hustle.
And then I eventually became an independent consultant.
And you know, all of these things lead up to one another. So failures are actually probably essential, right?
To being a boss. And to really, um, figuring out, you know, what is sustainable. And what you want out of life. I think that's - no matter how stuck we get, I think sometimes we need to realize, like, we can always find new ways, or just, um, we can modify what we're doing. There's always space to do that.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Thank you, Alice, for your vulnerability in sharing that story with us. I'm. I think it's an important reminder that, um, to your point, uh, that, you know, if it, because maybe plans have shifted or some may say, like, a door closes, that doesn't necessarily, that that actually could mean that it's creating space for multiple other doors to open, so you can walk through a different or other door.
Um, and so I, I hope that people take, um, some inspiration or in some, um, uh, understanding that like, uh, even if something didn't happen the way we necessarily planned, it doesn't necessarily mean that it was not the right path or the right way. Um, and so I appreciate you kind of lifting that up.
Alice Wong: And I'm curious about... from boss to boss...
Uh, I have a really interesting relationship between the idea of plans. You know, sometimes, I think plans are in many ways, traps.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmmmmn.
Alice Wong: You know, I think it's good to have goals but I feel like sometimes that's what happened to me, where I was so invested in this particular goal, you know, I think I didn't even consider something else and I feel like, you know, now that I have my own company, I'll afford to avoid a plan, and, you know, do I have to stick with a plan? To me, I still have the freedom because I'm a one person operation, but, uh, you know, you clearly are working with colleagues, you know, your staff. Like this is harder as a mid size or smaller company because you know, you do have to have plans.
But I wonder sometimes, whether it's, it could be that double-edged sword. What are your thoughts on that?
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: I know, I appreciate this question. I, I actually go back and forth around the importance. I, I feel like it's important to have, um, a guide or at least a sense of what we are trying to build towards. Um, but I also believe that.
You know, especially as you're engaging other and different people that even people's understanding or ways to get there could and are different. And in many ways that's actually part of the beauty of, um, you know, uh, engaging with diverse and different, different types of people. It's because they may inspire or provide, um, an option or a pathway that you maybe didn't think of before.
Um, and so I - I've been growing and that's something that I've been trying to build within myself is a grace and a patience and an openness to be able to say, even though I may have an idea or a thought or thought that this was a way that we should do it doesn't necessarily mean that that has to be the only or the absolute way to do it. And so to your point, um, it, it, it's, there's a level of being nimble and being able to be, uh, fluid in processes and in ways we achieve things, um, and sometimes even what we're looking to achieve changes, right? So not only the plan itself, but like the outcomes or the ways in which we're measuring it shift.
Um, so I appreciate you bringing that nuance in there, um, as part of this conversation.
Alice Wong: Yeah. As long as you didn't mind me asking that. Because I think - that's something I just wrestle with, as myself, just I think of other bosses or people who are in leadership positions. And I think about it as leadership has these responsibilities, right.
It's not about just this, you know, figurehead position.
It's about being responsible, you know. And it's a huge thing that - that weighs on me, you know. I think a lot. I think... I care a lot. And I think this is something that is important, whenever we do made decisions that we really put some thoughts and time. Even though I think there are so many external pressures, right. Being, you know, to move really fast or just like we have to do this, this and that. But I think there's that tension again about being intentional, and maybe sometimes being okay to say, like, "Let's take a pause." Even though it might not be good for the company, it might not, you know, be good financially, but maybe this is good for our people, for our staff, right? I think that's... how can we be humane?
And very, um, deliberate. I think that's, to me, what being a boss is too. You know, being deliberate. I am very selective. I am very careful of who I want to work with, and just, the projects I want to do. Because I have limited time, you know, I'm a one-person operation. I don't want to... there's only so many things I want to do or can do. So I am going to do things that give me joy. And I think that helps drive my decision-making.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmn.
I appreciate you lifting that up, um, with kind of, you kind of are leading me to the next question I wanted to ask you, um, Alice around, you know, can you share a time when you felt burdened having to explain yourself and how have you navigated care and boundaries as a disabled activist?
Alice Wong: Yeah. This is really funny because during the pandemic, and especially these last few months, I feel like personally, my own sleep schedule has been basically kind of wonky. So, you know, it's atypical for sure. And here we are speaking about capitalism, right?
In the way that labor is organized, right? That's - you know, 9 to 5, Monday through Friday idea, even though that's really not the case anymore for most people. Today we have all kinds of economies now. We have remote working, we have the gig economy, we have... All sorts of things that are very exploitative, right?
But also things that are more flexible. So firstly, I did a stranger window of availability.
So, one thing that's been more hard for me sometimes is when I'm trying to schedule -- I'm meeting with somebody. And you know, I think my time is different there.
That's actually when I'm going to be asleep. So I'm sometimes thinking, oh, should I push myself? Is this important enough for me to kind of, you know, do with less sleep? Or am I going to prioritize my health and wellness?
Because I would say you asked me this in my twenties and thirties, of course I would push my body to do more. Of course I'm like, "here's an opportunity, I've gotta, of course I've got to do this!" You know, I feel so lucky to be at this age because... I'm less worried about that.
I'm much more assertive, saying: "these are the days, the times that work for me. Would they work for you?" And then we can, well, have a negotiation of sorts. But also keep me to that, right. You know, these are really the best times- the best times that will work for me, and if it doesn't work for you, would you try to find an alternative? Or maybe this isn't something that we should be doing, because why should we waste each other's time and effort? And being able to let go of certain things, that I don't have to - if like there's a project or an opportunity, I think that's OK, you know? I think, referring back to the subject of your podcast, being a boss is also having the confidence and the belief that if you do good work, and you continue to do good work, these opportunities, will keep coming. Just, one way or another. You know, it doesn't have to be, this... uh, you know, you trying to just pursue everything out of a fear of, you know, missing out or losing your chance, or losing a grant or something.
I think that's, to me, I'm at that time where I'm okay with that. You know, not getting a huge amount of money. I just want to be able to have that kind of flexibility and the freedom to really make work, work for me. And that's being a boss!!
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, you know, Alice, you're talking about confidence and, uh, I think, um, we often times don't see ourselves, or our people represented in - you gave examples of academia. I know I've seen work, your work, around, um, a lack of representation and not seeing ourselves in media and maybe even non-profits and like the advocacy world, you know, what has, what has helped you in your journey to believe in yourself and to build that confidence?
Alice Wong: I think it's just... Again, it doesn't happen overnight. And it takes a long time. And I'm I'm constantly working on this. But it's about knowing your worth, and knowing about our collective wisdom.
Some communities that we're a part of... there's a lot of beauty and wisdom that's there. The brilliance. You know, that makes me feel confident.
Right, that I'm on the right track. That there are people out there that care if my work resonates with people. You know, there's this whole universe. I'm just one part of it. That, not the... I don't have to be the center, I don't need to take over. I'm not some colonizer, but I am part of this larger universe. That gives me solace. You know, I could keep going. If I miss something, if I pass something up - it's going to go to somebody else. And it might be if I put something out there... It might reach somebody years later! And that feels good, right? So you just have to have faith that what you're doing is worth doing. I think that's tough, right? That is tough because, we're always in our own self-doubt, and just all of our insecurities, but I do feel like, at least for me you know, there is such a need, that there is a void, that I know what I'm doing is needed. And that makes me feel good.
I know I have something to contribute. So I have to have faith that, whether people recognize it or not, whether people praise it or not, whether it has all those bells and whistles, it's not about that. It's about leaving something behind. That, to me is what it's all about... Just leaving things behind, to make the world a little bit brighter and a little bit sassier or colorful. And you know, more fun. And you love to dance. I know that's, you know, that's your thing, right?
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Yeah. Yeah.
Alice Wong: You're very good at twirling, I have to say, so. Twirl the world, you know? Make the world twirl around us.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, twirling, yes, I, I love a good twirl, Alice. Um, and I, I appreciate the frame that you are offering around collective brilliance. You know, I - I'm, I also like talking about interdependence and how, you know, there's no way - none of us do this on our own. There are many a people, and many a person, even if we don't, they're not visible, or we see them - are playing such important and critical roles in making sure that we can connect and be in community to get the, the things that we need.
Um, and so I'm, I'm holding that very close too, around making sure that I don't, it, we don't become so individualized that we - we've, we erase all of the people that, that it takes to kind of to, to live and to be able to, to be in and our reliance on each other. Right.
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Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, and you know, in speaking of collective brilliance, I know that you are a co-partner on a variety of projects, including www.disabledwriters.com, hashtag #criplit.
Um, hashtag #cripthevote. Um, could you share with us the story around how you came up with those titles and the particular word choice and, um, and, and how that continues... that work, it continues to evolve? Um, would love to hear more about that.
Alice Wong: The three things you mentioned are all collaborations with people, and these are all kinda outside of my, kind of media or consulting work.
You know, maybe we should just think of it as labors of love, and activism, and just all-around, kind of, cultural work.
So uh, #criplit, and you know, #cripthevote, are just two kind of online communities. You know, we just use the hashtag. And, uh, #criplit was created actually by my dear partner, Nicola Griffith,
who is a disabled novelist. And she's the first one to come up with that hashtag. So that was her credit. And uh, for that and #cripthevote, which is something I created with my friends Andrew and Gregg. You know, this was a way for us to talk about voting and politics, because firstly, the mainstream media, totally starting in 2016 during the presidential election, there was a very little discussion about disability issues or disabled rights -- or voters. You know, the three of us were very engaged with current events and politics.
So we thought, OK, well let's just you know, give it a try and just, use that hashtag, and say like, "what do you care about?" You know, I just find a way to create communities that's already there, but there's a way for us to kind of centralize.
Get mobilized that way. I think it's something very exciting to see, because, you know, hashtag activism is a real thing. As we have seen with #BlackLivesMatter. Uh, but it, in terms of the word "crip", I think, you know, not all disabled people use it, but for me it's part of my politicized identity. It's a way to talk about being disabled within a very political context. Right, that there is systemic inequality. There's ableism that's embedded into every institution, and that "cripping" something, for me, means imbuing it with Disabled culture, disabled wisdom, you know, disabled people. I think there's been so many forces that make us feel like we are alone.
It's also - we've been segregated and institutionalized for centuries, if not millenia. So, I think a lot of people use the word "crip" as a form of kinship. You know, it's the idea that, you know, you and I, we may have different disabilities, but we have some sort of sensibility about our relationship with the state, and about our experiences of marginalization. So that to me is how I understand the word "crip" in my own sort of identification as one. I don't know if that answered your question.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: No, it absolutely does. It also makes me reflect on my own experience as a gay and Queer person where I know "queer" is a word that many folks are reclaiming or, you know, there was a time where it was meant to otherize or demean or diminish, um, folks. And now I, I see it as in a similar way, like as a political identity, as a, as a reclaiming what is ours and redefining what you, what, what may have, uh, others may have used it as to describe me and my people. This is, this is actually about a collective in unity and about power in who we are and who our people are. And so I guess I'm drawing parallels to ways in which communities have, um, reclaimed, re- reframed and are redefining, in many ways, what some of these words could and should mean for ourselves and for our communities.
Alice Wong: Yeah. Those are words that can only be used by us, right? Like in the Queer community, there's certain words, like, I'm not gonna just say it.
Right. You know, and about, in Black communities, there's no way I'm going to say certain words, because it's not mine to use. And I think that's part of respect, but also understanding that there are, within community, norms and sensibilities. You know, so clearly's there's
not everybody within our community feels comfortable with that. There's not a lot of people who are politicized in the Queer communities -
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmn-hmmn.
Alice Wong: - and in disabled communities. There's both, there's people who are, there are Queer disabled people too. But I would generally say that, you know, politicized folks are still the minority, right? Most people just wanna, you know, live their lives. Not think about all of the things, you know, but I think that's OK, too. Nobody should be - feel obligated just because you're a marginalized person to be a activist, or you know, politicized. You know, just live. We just want to live.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, I agree with that and feel, um, that is also part of, you know, in many ways, part of how to be a boss or how to be an activist is creating more space and more ways for people to live in the ways that they want to live. Um, and you know, the next question I want to ask you is around
just, how do we, how do we build a world that is not catered to ableist systems? Um, and I am, you know, I would love to hear more about your own journey and how that informs, how you champion, um, uh, disability culture and history.
Alice Wong: Yeah. This is a tough question because you know, it's a collective effort that must center on the most marginalized. So I think that's one way - for example, in this pandemic, it is very disheartening to see not just the states, but just all these decision-makers... you know, ending mask mandates, and... this push to return to normal.
When they're not listening to immuno-compromised people, to disabled people. Chronically ill people are saying, "hold up, do you know what the consequences are?" I think a lot of disabled folks at the beginning of the pandemic, you know, were saying, you know, "things are gonna be messed up because you're not listening to us. You're not prioritizing us." Here we are now with so many variants. You know, if we really were in a society that was interdependent and cared about everyone, we wouldn't be where we are today. But people are considered disposable. We're almost reaching the 1 billion mark in deaths. How is this OK? You know, it's okay that - you see this constantly in newspapers. "Oh, this person had underlying conditions." "Oh, this person had a pre-existing condition." It's like, oh, you know, it's "those people" who are going to bear the brunt. That, to me, is ableism, right. So the fact that this is just, you know, like it's otherizing. While forgetting that, you know, that's your grandma, that's your grandpa. That's, uh, you know, so many people that are around you that you don't feel realize, you know. I think that's what's really sad, when you see employers push their workers to be un-masked or, you know, there's no vaccination mandates.
Because the employers, and their employees, their employees will have family members that are high-risk. And you're forcing those employees to make horrible decisions out of fear, that they don't want to make. So to me, it's very sad that we're still steeped in this world, where disabled people are not considered, or barely considered. They're rarely given the power. They're rarely centered. Um, so I think we should all just start doing that because once we center multiply marginalized people, and let them lead, I think the world will be a much better place. It's not easy to do, but, uh, easier to say than to do, but I think that's a much broader answer to the question.
It's just... it's tough.
It's really... still sometimes I feel like, you know, what's the point, sometimes. Because it feels like, it's so overwhelming, the structures, the odds. I guess people are just trying to live and they're just starting to be aware, and knowing that they are not alone. And in many ways, that's why I write what I write. I create my work, my podcast, other things, because I want people to see themselves... and to know that they are not alone.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Mmmn-hmmn. I, um, appreciate you lifting that up, Alice. Like one thing that I've been reflecting on is, you know, the pandemic I think has, um, made more visible or made more clear, the, how the systems are not only broken, but were designed to work against marginalized people. And so, I- I'm, I think people are being, uh, uh, awoken or awakened to this concept of like, "oh, well, maybe things weren't actually that great before the pandemic."
But now that there is, uh, this pandemic, it shows these cracks in the system that are like leaving multiple communities and different people behind. Um, and I know that even for me, I learned so much and I've been being pushed so much around access. And I know for many folks, Zoom and video conferencing was a new thing over the last couple of years, but it was disabled activists and organizers who are like, "we've been telling you all that this is actually one way to increase access for events and meetings!"
And. Um, I really hold that. And I'm in, even as part of this podcast, I was like, well, in order for us to have a podcast, which is mostly audio, we also need to have ASL interpreters. I want to do video captions, transcript, because there, we need to be able to create more access for folks. Um, and that is one thing that I know that I've really taken and appreciate from folks, especially disabled activists like yourself, who, who remind me and push me to say, you know, "how are we increasing access as, uh, as much as possible and how are we also centering those most marginalized?"
And so...
Alice Wong: What you're doing in terms of doing all of these things, and learning and growing is really important because they, in the future, yeah, with future guests and they won't have to ask, "oh, will there be a transcript?" This will just be the standard.
And hopefully other podcasters, and other people that you encounter will take note of the way you're doing things, and then that will be a ripple effect. I think that's the hope, right? That's... as we each keep doing what we can to try to expand and to learn, to create more access, other people will see it and, you know, it becomes normalized.
And I think that's the future, right? That's the normal that we should aim for. Not what we have done in the past - we just can't go back. And I feel like there's so many things that's in the economy and in our government that willfully wants us to almost forget and just return as if we're not traumatized globally.
And the fact also is just that, you know, I don't mean to go on about this pandemic, but we're gonna have hundreds of thousands and millions of people living with long COVID.
Their lives are never going to be the same. We will really, will have to fundamentally change everything about our society. This is a mass event.
That's - we may not realize it now, but it's true. We're gonna really feel it later on, especially, you know, I think a lot about kids and the world they're growing up in. This is... they won't know, they won't know a life before the pandemic. What does that, what does that mean for them? So yeah, I think a lot about that. I think about, you know, we have to move forward. We can't move backwards.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, I wanted to ask you Alice, if you could share more about the concept and the framework of, um, disability justice. Um, I know that you, uh - Well, you know, you were one person, for me, that really helped me understand more about it, helped me make sure I knew some of the folks that were critical, and to coming up with the framework.
And so can you share briefly with folks, um, who are those people that you think they should, who are the people that helped create that disability justice framework? And anything, um, you want others to know about them?
Alice Wong: Yeah. I think a lot of people hear that term, and they think of, they think that this is a new way of talking about disability rights. And it's not. They're kind of different.
Uh, you know, rights are very much within this legalistic framework, that you are given rights. There's a law, that there are things that the state laws does that renders you, you know, a person with, you know - protections.
Disability justice was created primarily by uh, disabled women of color, trans disabled people. It was the Queer disabled people of color in the San Francisco Bay Area, about maybe 10, 15 years ago. And the best source of the - to understand it, is a group called Sins Invalid. S-I-N-S I-N-V-A-L-I-D. If you do a Google search and go to their website, they actually have, a disability justice primer. You know, it briefly goes into the principles. And some of the principles are what we talked about today. Interdependence. Leadership of the most impacted. That nobody is disposable. This was a response by marginalized disabled people within this broader white-centric, disability rights community.
That's why they didn't feel like those issues really addressed their lived experience. So, disability justice is much more, I think, broader, nuanced, and much more collectivist, and anti-capitalist politic. So I think those are the main kind of hallmarks of disability justice. And for anybody listening, just a simple reminder - it's not a synonym for disability rights. So, just be careful too, when you're using that term.
We need rights. We do need rights. But we also need justice.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Right. We need rights. We need justice. They're not, um, we can't equate them. Um, and I, I understand justice to be broader and more encompassing than, than, than rights. Um, you know, I, I would love to talk a little bit about your, um, your books. And I know you edited one book called Disability Visibility, and you have a memoir coming out called Year of the Tiger in this Year of the Tiger.
Can you tell us more about, um, what led you to name the books you did and what you learned during the processes of writing those books?
Alice Wong: Yeah, the first book was an anthology, and you know, the term "Disability Visibility" is from the project that I started about, in 2014. So that was something that I kind of initiated, I started really as an oral history campaign, and it just, snowballed. It became my life's work.
I basically uh - getting back to being a boss - it's sort of funny. I did it as a side thing for awhile. And then, it quickly, you know, it came to a moment where like - "well, should I do this full-time? You know, should I quit my job? This seems like where we're going..." And there was another scary moment, right? Like this is like, you know, "do I go full...all-in?" And I did. And you know, within a few years, I realized, OK, it's time to form my LLC. Because I need a business entity. So those are all different ways of just the evolution of what started really as creating culture, telling our stories. And it has become this, uh, publishing/ media / consulting company, which is, you know, pretty wild to think about. And I couldn't be more excited and happy with the way things have turned out. And I think that's been also interesting, too. That if you keep doing the work, people will notice. And that's how I got a book deal! So that's you know, I did, I used, the first opportunity for a book deal, to create an anthology, to really showcase the brilliance of our community. I didn't want it to be about me. It was a joy to edit the anthology. So, you know, that anthology came out in 2020. And I thought, actually, what should be my follow-up?
And I thought, "OK, you know? It could be my time." Like I should, you know, maybe I should, I deserve.
And I also notice as... you know, I talked about my age, I'm 48. Just - I'm really proud of it, too, to be at this age. And you know, just looking back, I was like, "woah, like, there's a huge... array of things I've created, and real array of writing."
So I thought this could be really something nice to put together in a memoir. So that's the purpose of Year of the Tiger. You know, it's kind of a memoir, but also collected works - so, some of my essays, different articles, blog posts, conversations with people. So those are sort of, it's a bit of a mishmash, and it should be really fun. You know. I just really was determined last year to make it as fun as possible, and you will have to find out and see how much you like it! September 6th! Woohoo!
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Well, I definitely pre-ordered my copy. Um, I am looking forward to reading your memoir. Um, I personally was also born in the Year of the Tiger, and so I feel like...
Alice Wong: I love it! Fellow Tigers!
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Um, so here's to some roaring success for your book and continued, like, prosperity and love and community. Um, especially...
Alice Wong: Tiger power, Greg. You and your tiger power.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Tiger power.
Alice Wong: I love it. No wonder we are... This is the one. This explains a lot.. Fellow Tigers.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Fellow Tigers. Um, and, uh, I love that we are, uh, lifting that up, especially, um, as folks have been celebrating Lunar New Year. Um, you know, I, the next question I want to ask you, Alice, um - And even, you know, this is maybe kind of connecting back to one of the initial stories you told us, you know, from your, uh, younger self. But maybe thinking, thinking back to that younger Alice, um, and now that you are at this, um, uh, this, this, this age of 48, is there anything that you would tell that younger Alice, um, then that, that, you know now?
Alice Wong: You know, I would just say that, "You belong in the future." You know, I did not think I was going to belong in the future. I didn't see a future, to be really honest. And I write about this in the book, but I'll just tell you as well. You know, when I was, you know, a child diagnosed with my disability, the doctors told my parents that I wouldn't live past 18. So I grew up not knowing how to see myself, right? So I basically had to write myself in. You know, there's a famous quote by a writer, "you have to write yourself in..."
Octavia K. Butler, I think. Maybe I'm wrong.
You know, you have to force yourself to really imagine yourself in the future. So that, to me, I think is the most important thing I would say to little Alice. "Why you didn't see yourself -" I forgot this. I didn't even think about what I would look like as a 30 year old.
Like I just... I just didn't even think about it. But, uh, I would tell that little Alice, that, uh, she belongs in the future. And that the future is hers.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: You had a different plan than what that doctor said. And I personally could... just want to just offer that: I am so grateful to know you, Alice, so grateful to experience your brilliance and your wisdom and to be in community with you.
Um, and I'm so inspired by how you... um, as you've redefined that plan, as you've become a boss in your own right, that you have lifted up others, you have shared the stories of others, and created space for so many folks to feel seen and, and, um, a part of something bigger than themselves. And so thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.
Alice Wong: This was really delightful. And I think conversations are where so many things begin: dreams, activism, you know, all kinds of things. So, you know, I always love being in conversation with people.
It's been a real delight, thank you for having me on.
It was an absolute honor and pleasure. And I'm excited about, uh, folks, uh, being able to learn more about you and being able to read your memoir in this Year of the Tiger.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Thanks again, Alice.
Gregory Allan Datu Cendana: Thank you for checking out the #BeTheBossNow Podcast with your host Gregory Allan Datu Cendana, President and Co-Founder of Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting. We believe you CAN and WILL be a stronger entrepreneur embracing fear, honoring failure, and remaining humble enough to be teachable.
Check out our book, this podcast, and other resources available for those of you current or aspiring bosses at BeTheBossNow.com. Be sure to follow Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting and myself on all major social media platforms @CSWSconsulting and @gregorycendana. More information can be found on our website at CSWSConsulting.com.
The Can’t Stop! Won’t Stop! Consulting team would like to thank the following people who were critical to the production of the #BeTheBossNow Podcast:
Vanessa Shiliwala of Thrive Spice Media, Executive Producer
melissa kelley colibri, accessibility coordinator
darryn rousseau hollifield and Stephanie Chao, American Sign Language Interpreters
All my family, friends, educators, and anyone–including the naysayers–who played a role in shaping the boss I am today.
This is for you and for you and everyone with an idea of starting a business, let this be a guide, light, and motivation. We all can be the boss NOW.